Tuesday, May 22, 2012

Progressivism ≠ Evolution


I’ve been very busy and emotionally taxed and so I have not expanded the discussion from the post immediately preceding this one: “Progressivism in Churches”. However, two very pointed comments were offered, both of which are worthy of further evaluation.

My atheist Internet acquaintance and perhaps even friend gave an opposing comment while my brother in Christ gave a supporting comment.  In order to make this further examination of the issue easier, I will include the two comments here.

Canadian Atheist said...


     NA, religion either evolves with society or it dies. Christianity is dying. Young people are leaving the church in droves, women are as well. Pretty much every Christian sect is losing numbers well below the increase in population. Mormonism is a significant exception. Atheism and agnosticism are growing at a phenomenal rate and has already engulfed most of Europe.

     My latest blog post looks into this in a bit more detail. I invite you over to have a look. :)


Gary Cepek said...


Paul,

     Your post's presupposition is that a person's faith is personal, yet it's origin and maintenance is not of the person himself, but through and only through the Means employed by YHWH Theos. No individual is capable of Christian faith, even though every individual is capable of reason. Therefore faith exists only where YHWH Theos' Means are taught and applied as He has given them. You observe that the exercise of human reason in understanding and applying what faith believes moves them further from the faith.
This presupposition is unreasonable but totally Biblical.

     Canadian Atheist observes that religion either evolves with society or it dies; particularly this is true of Christianity. His observation is reasonable but totally un-biblical. He correctly stands by his reason. That's because faith is not reasonable.


I have points of clarification and correction to declare in response to both comments, even though I am actually in agreement with Gary, even full agreement.  I do have points of clarification, however, for Gary’s points.  I also have some friendly points for my Canadian friend’s comment.

Gary’s point that faith is not reasonable, is true from the perspective of the fallen and corrupt reason with which we approach what we observe and try to examine these things.  But faith is not truly unreasonable.  It is actually reasonable to the very highest degree.  For the first two people, those who were created in the image and likeness of God and walked in the fullness of knowing Him in His Holy Communion, faith made perfect sense.  Faith and trust in their loving Father was the only reasonable perception.  Before the couple chose to enter into the knowledge of Good and Evil, they knew only the goodness of their Father and His will.  They had no false notions of free will, because their wills were truly one with God’s will.  And so they were truly happy and content.  They basked in the true freedom of the unity of their wills with the perfect will of God.  They knew no deviant ways.  For them there was only the one way, and it was perfectly good.

But then came the tempter to them and they turned from the faith in which they had been created to look to a deviant way of thinking.  They looked to the way of Evil.  They then became one with Evil and became separated from Good, for Good is of God.  Their response was unreasonable.  They chose to walk away from the freedom and light into the bondage and shadows of darkness and confusion.  Never again would they be free to live without having to consider whether their actions and choices are good or evil.  Never again would they be free to look to their reflections and see themselves as God had created them.  Now they experienced shame.  Now they experienced self-doubt.  Now they experienced fear of every sort.  Now they tried to hide from themselves and especially from the One who is truly Good.

But even now, faith is still genuinely reasonable.  Even the pseudoscientists have to admit that faith is good, although they know not where faith originates nor upon what it clings.  But faith is entirely reasonable.  It makes perfect sense, that is, when one encounters that which is to be believed and trusted.

For example of the use of reason regarding faith:

     And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.  (Acts 17:10-12)


It is this reasoning that is regenerated in the heart from above that becomes the new will and the new mind and the new life of the regenerated believer and of the believers together as the Church.  They embrace one Way.  They hear the one Truth.  They share in the one Life.  They know of one Baptism, one Lord, one Faith.  They partake of one holy meal together.  They are inhabited by the one Spirit.  They are made to be one body together, the body of Christ, the Church.

My Canadian friend speaks from a perspective of atheism and agnosticism.  Agnosticism is a-knowing, or without knowledge.  Atheism is a-goded, or without god.  These are really one in the same, the religion of the world.  These actually include all of the religions of the world, save the true knowledge and Communion of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Canadian speaks from the perspective of the world, which includes most who imagine themselves to be Christians.  Sadly, there have never been very many true Christians in the world.  The Scriptures always speak of the true Church as a remnant and a tiny flock.  Thus, the witness that is observed in the world is usually a corrupt and false witness.  Therefore, the observation that religion must evolve to survive is falsely presumed.  After all, this is what is observed in most of the churches and church bodies.

But this notion of surviving through evolving is entirely untrue, even for the worldly religions.  This can be seen most clearly when one realizes the fact that what is really described is not evolution but devolution.  When a religion is compromised to conform to society, that religion devolves until it completely disintegrates and is absorbed into the ways of the society.  The identity that was once clearly proclaimed and professed and lived is eventually lost.

This notion of setting aside the things that differentiate the religion from the rest of society as a move toward survival is like saying that a planet that breaks up into smaller pieces when colliding with an asteroid is survival.  Far from survival of the planet, what occurs is total disintegration into an asteroid belt.  It is no longer a planet.  The planet has ceased to exist.  It works the same way with religions.

This is even more pronounced with regard to those who profess to be the Church.  When churches and church bodies surrender their doctrine and practice, breaking up the unity of the faith and communion, they cease to be the Church.  The true Church, the true body of Christ, does not die.  However, the pieces that become separated from the body do die.  They are no longer untied with and alive in Christ.

Sadly, very few people ever even recognize the true Church on earth.  This is as the Lord Jesus explains to Nicodemus in John 3, when He says that no one can perceive the kingdom of God unless he be generated from above.  Faith is that through which the kingdom of God is perceived.  How can one who has not been regenerated recognize the kingdom of God?  How can such an unregenerate person speak concerning things of the kingdom of God, the body of Christ?

This is made worse by the fact that there are many churches and church bodies that falsely represent the true faith.  They do not hold to the pure Word and the pure Sacraments.  Thus they turn the life of the Church into a life of seeking to follow rules and regulations.  The freedom of living by grace through faith is never taught or embraced.  The God of mercy and grace is presented as a God of judgment and condemnation.  Even His great sacrifice of His own life on the cross is presented as something other than an act of grace.  The Sacraments are made to be demands for commitments and decisions and obedience.  Prayers are perverted to be means of obtaining favor rather than the communication of favor.  Works of every kind are piled up as requirements for acceptance by God, even though He has declared that His works are what bring us near to Him and keep us united with Him.

As this legalism becomes more and more prevalent, those who claim to represent the Lord and the true Church become more and more obsessed with control.  The Gospel becomes discounted as the power of God unto salvation, and various traditions and rules become the safeguards.  Then these “leaders” seek to have the power to enforce these.  They grasp after power, including secular power.  Then they enact atrocities like have occurred under the papacy, and under the Calvinists and Puritans and others.  Witch hunts and heretic trials are enacted.  People are tortured and murdered, all supposedly in the name of Jesus, even though He strictly condemned such ways.

How through these things would anyone looking on even begin to perceive the true Church, the true kingdom of God?  Who would learn of the God of grace from such monstrous actions?

This is not the way of the true Church.  The true Church is gathered by the Holy Spirit to the pure Word and the pure Sacraments.  The saints congregate with the sole intention of hearing the Gospel of God’s grace in Christ proclaimed and the absolution pronounced and the Holy Communion to be administered.  These saints seek no glory or power for themselves.  They gather to examine themselves, to confess their own personal miserable condition, so that they may hear again God’s gracious answer.  They have no desire to cast judgment at others, for they are concerned with receiving remittance of their own guilt and sins.  They rise up rejoicing and praising God for His goodness.  They come as one to the Holy Table to receive the very means of their salvation and new life, the body and blood of their Savior God.  They share together in this gracious life and they go home and to work displaying this in their daily lives.  They seek the good of their neighbors and countrymen, not from obligation, but from love.  They share the good news through which they have been regenerated to this new life.  They seek to protect the helpless in whatever ways that they can.  They obey the laws of the land out of love for their fellow man, knowing that good order benefits everyone.  They endure ridicule without returning evil for evil.  They love and bless those who persecute them.  In as much as is in their power, they live in peace with all men.  All of this flows freely from hearts filled with the peace of God that surpasses all understanding.

But this is not the way when the churches compromise the doctrine and practice that has been handed down by the apostles.  When the churches look away from the pure means of grace and begin to modify themselves to be more like what people seek in the worldly circles, this peace that is provided through the pure means of grace disintegrates.  As the unity disintegrates the life and identity of the churches disintegrate.

Throughout history, such unity and communion has been rare.  Compromise is the prevailing way.   But where the saints count the pure means of grace to be more important than anything else in the world, there the true Church still thrives.  There God still is with His beloved and they share together in the Communion of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.  Whether it be a gathering of two or three, or a gathering of thousands, there the Church thrives and enjoys all the blessings of heaven and everlasting life and hope and joy.

Thus I grieve to observe the many who turn away to the ways of compromise and disintegration of the life and faith of the true Church.  Yet I also remain confident and unmoved and filled with ceaseless joy in knowing the faithfulness of the Lord in preserving His Church on earth until the day of the final consummation.

+ + +


9 comments:

Gary Cepek said...

Paul,

The scattered bones of my brief comment are gathered together and assembled in your response; my spirit's faith breaths in the life the LORD Himself has permitted to flow from your comments. May He, the One and only Triune God, grant that same breathing into Canadian Atheist and all who read such words of truth which honor the Truth revealed in Christ and granted by His Means of Grace.

Gary Cepek

Canadian Atheist said...

Interesting post, NA. I'm flattered that you thought my comment worthy of greater consideration. I'd also be honored if you considered me a friend, even though we may profoundly disagree at times about religion.

You mention the garden of Eden in your post. Even if we grant that the the Bible has it right (which DNA, archeology etc refute) the problem with the story is that God supposedly put the tree there with full knowledge that Adam and Eve would eat from it. Not only that, but he created Satan knowing the same thing, unless you grant that God isn't omniscient, omnipotent or omni-present. This makes God explicitly responsible for the outcome, making God either evil or at the very least, malevolent.

Second, you bring up how the Church shouldn't change. You did an admirable job of explaining your position. However, it overlooks the facts. The fact is that Christianity is not practiced the same way now as it was 100-200-500-1000 years ago. It has constantly evolved. People 500 years ago used the same book to guide their lives as you do now. It's a bit arrogant to assume that you have it right and they did not. The Bible is full of atrocities sanctioned by God, interspersed with some good stuff. You can easily sanction all kinds of atrocities using the same book that someone justifies loving their neighbor.

Finally, I would have to agree with Gary that faith is unreasonable. In no other area of life do we base (or make lofty claims) without evidence of any kind and think those claims deserve respect. Your claims are no more valid than a Muslim's, Hindu's or person who believes in Zeus.

May He, the One and only Triune God, grant that same breathing into Canadian Atheist and all who read such words of truth which honor the Truth revealed in Christ and granted by His Means of Grace.---> I'm open to possibilities but I very much doubt that I will become a Christian any time soon. There is too much evidence against and none for. It would also require me to set aside all logic and reasoning and embrace faith as an acceptable alternative.

Gary Cepek said...

Canadian Atheist,

Evidence serves one's judgment only when that evidence, in its parts, and as a whole, is untainted and complete. Otherwise one's opinion is errant.

You stated that, "There is too much evidence against and none for (being a Christian). It would also require me to set aside all logic and reasoning and embrace faith as an acceptable alternative." That is true. Your judgment and my judgment draw conclusions based on as much evidence as we can gather and validate. Our judgments may be valid or invalid.

Faith, however, is not an alternative to reason. The reasonable atheism you have constructed is based on the conclusions you have formed from your observations. The faith I have been given, by way of contrast, is a confident trust in things I cannot reason out or discover or know, except that it has been given to me by the One True and Triune God. The Bible is the tool He used to give me faith in Christ, the Savior revealed by Him in the Bible, to me.

You are also correct: my faith, in contrast to the reason we people naturally treasure, deserves no respect from people. Neither you, nor any other human can see the confident trust in Christ the Savior I have been given. I may try to reasonably express my confidence, but my human frailty can easily betrays my efforts at clear communication. The same can be said about my (or someone else's) efforts to study the Bible; if I my presuppositions into the Bible, I distort what it clearly says. That has been a human failing since Adam. Your reason can perceive this. But is cannot perceive the confidence He gives me in spite of me.

No, faith is not an alternative to reason. Still, as I commented earlier, "May he, the One and only Triune God, grant that same breathing (of confidence) into you, C/A, and all who read such words of truth which honor the Truth revealed in Christ and granted by His Means of Grace."

Gary Cepek

Canadian Atheist said...

Hi Gary,

The faith I have been given, by way of contrast, is a confident trust in things I cannot reason out or discover or know, except that it has been given to me by the One True and Triune God. The Bible is the tool He used to give me faith in Christ, the Savior revealed by Him in the Bible, to me.==>I disagree. Faith is the word people use when they lack evidence. If you had evidence, you would not need faith.

The Bible is the tool He used to give me faith in Christ, the Savior revealed by Him in the Bible, to me.--->Yes, that's your perception. Do you ever wonder why there are thousands of religions and all of them have the same basis for their belief as you do for yours? Muslims 'feel' they are right every bit as much as you do. Hindu's, Pagans, Wiccans etc all have the same reasons to believe.

You are also correct: my faith, in contrast to the reason we people naturally treasure, deserves no respect from people. Neither you, nor any other human can see the confident trust in Christ the Savior I have been given.---> I agree. But I respect your posts. It's nice talking to a believer such as yourself. It's almost a breath of fresh air. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Gary Cepek said...

Canadian Atheist,

I also thank you for taking the time to respond.

You wrote, "If you had evidence, you would not need faith." I agree if by evidence you mean empirical evidence. The Bible puts it this way, "Faith is a realization of hopes, a conviction about unseen things." (Hebrews 11:1). Christian faith is never the outgrowth of empirical evidence. It is the result of Divine work.

To advance our conversation, I ask you to explain your comment, "Do you ever wonder why there are thousands of religions and all of them have the same basis for their belief as you do for yours?" What do you mean when you aver that all religions have the same basis for their faith? Are you asserting that the substance of all religions is the same?

Gary Cepek

Canadian Atheist said...

"Faith is a realization of hopes, a conviction about unseen things." ---> Sounds like wish thinking to me. I hope I live after my body dies. I hope my sins are forgiven. etc.

To advance our conversation, I ask you to explain your comment, "Do you ever wonder why there are thousands of religions and all of them have the same basis for their belief as you do for yours?" What do you mean when you aver that all religions have the same basis for their faith? Are you asserting that the substance of all religions is the same?--->Here's a video link that gives a better answer than I could give: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RXmkftK0Sw

Not Alone +++ PAS said...

I don’t have time now to do justice to any of what has been said, but I briefly want to address the issue of “hope” and Hebrews 11:1.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1 KJV)

A very wooden literal translation would read:

“Is now faith of confident expectings, substance of accomplished facts, conviction/proof of not being seens.”

The rest of Hebrews 11 explains this in considerable detail, explaining that faith is the confident expecting of what has been declared to be by the Lord, based upon what He has already done.

Now, this is meaningless to someone who refuses to see even what has been done. Faith is perceiving and expecting what is to be and to work even though it cannot be seen.

In my work I have a wonderful example of this. I climb trees by use of climbing lines/ropes, and a saddle, and other climbing apparatuses. I use various knots, and especially friction hitches in my climbing. My primary friction hitch is the Blake’s hitch or variations of it. It allows me to climb and advance my knot as I climb, to lower myself by pulling downward on the knot and thereby releasing tension and friction, or to hang securely in a position.

I cannot see friction. Though I know the theory in physics, neither I nor anyone else can truly explain friction. We call it a “force.” We can observe the effects of this force. We can measure the resistance that it causes. We can define it. We can hypothesize its causes. But we cannot truly explain it. Nevertheless, I believe it in and trust it with my safely and life. I have faith that when I tie my knot and secure it properly that friction will hold me securely in the necessary position until I release the tension on the knot. I have the confident hope that when I stop pulling on the standing line that I will be held in position by friction so that I do not plummet to great bodily harm or death.

This is not merely wishful thinking. It is based upon what I know of past acts of this “friction.” I rely upon it daily with full faith in the hope of what it does. I know what physical science declares as the doctrine of friction and I believe it and rely upon it and act in accord with this faith.

Canadian Atheist said...

This is not merely wishful thinking. It is based upon what I know of past acts of this “friction.” I rely upon it daily with full faith in the hope of what it does. I know what physical science declares as the doctrine of friction and I believe it and rely upon it and act in accord with this faith.---> That's because it's based on evidence - reproducible, testable evidence. Not so with God belief.

Gary Cepek said...

Canadian Atheist,

' "Faith is a realization of hopes, a conviction about unseen things." ---> Sounds like wish thinking to me. I hope I live after my body dies. I hope my sins are forgiven. etc.'

As you use the word, "wish / wishful" you seem to define it in the contemporary sense: a desire which arises from within, having no certainty of fulfillment. In the biblical use of the word, the faith to which I have been referring is not a wish / wishful. Its substance arises from what God has said in Christ (the Bible). Its presuppositions about life and death, the past present and furture, etc, are formed simply by what God has said in the contest in which He has spoken. Faith's conviction rests confidently in what God has said. Its hope is, in this narrow vein, a certain hope, even though the future realization of that hope still lies in my future; but not in God's future, since all is as one to Him in His existence. Thus, His activity is the focus, not my rationalism of life or death, the past, present or future.

I understand why these simple assertions about faith are not reasonable to you. They are not reasonable to me naturally, either. This oxymoron is not intended to prove, in the rationalistic sense, anything. It is intended to simply tell the conviction He, the One True and Triune God, has given me. I can understand why you have thus far concluded that all religions are essentially the same. But the one difference you have not accounted for is this: The One True and Triune God, in Christ, expects not one thing from me that He may be pleased with me. The god or gods of all other religions expect, in varying degrees, me to establish myself as pleasing to the god. The faith you or I cannot reason, but which the One True and Triune God is at work to give to me and to you, finds its rest in all that Christ has done for me and you, who have not earned it, nor do we deserve it. Christ alone is the reason God is pleased to call me His child. My faith is not the ticket I give Him to prove my sincerity. My faith is given from Him to me that I may grasp securely what He has revealed to me.

Thus I conclude as I have previously, May He, the One and only Triune God, grant that same breathing of faith into Canadian Atheist and all who read such words of truth which honor the Truth revealed in Christ and granted by His Means of Grace.

Gary Cepek